Carlos Mac Allister, in depth: "When you give Boca's locker room an inch, it becomes a powder keg."

It's not easy to find Carlos Mac Allister in Buenos Aires. With two of his four children playing abroad, he spends several months of the year in Europe. Even more so now that Alexis and Kevin , stars of Liverpool and Royale Union Saint-Gilloise, will be making him a grandfather. So will his daughter Abril , who has graduated as a lawyer and is pregnant. Francis, another who inherited his passion for soccer and is currently a starter at Instituto de Córdoba, will be a new uncle for now. The pride he shows for his children is evident in his eyes when he speaks to Clarín .

Family is one of the topics touched on in the interview, which takes place at his home in Devoto, of course. But Boca Juniors flows in the conversation and takes shape because the Colorado native is familiar with the blue and gold. After all, he played 130 matches in the Xeneize jersey between 1992 and 1996. It was during the era of the halcones and the palomas that fractured the locker room. At 57, the native of La Pampa is a member of the club. He is also an authoritative voice .

“You've seen how they say the province of Buenos Aires is a country within a country. Boca Juniors is a world within football. It's a place where you have to be clear about things . When you think it's more important than the club's history, you start to make mistakes… And I say this, even, for some players of our generation,” says the former left-back for Argentinos Juniors, Boca Juniors, Racing Club, and Ferro, who played for Coco Basile's Argentina national team.

-Over time, we've come to understand that there's nothing more important than the institution. It's a loaned position, given to you for a period of time. The presidency must be carried out with honesty, with work, with dedication, with humility, with a lot of openness, with new ideas. You can't manage Boca Juniors thinking like you did twenty or thirty years ago. Today, the speed of technology is passing you by. In the near future, the world is going to change. They'll invent self-driving cars, drones that plant crops on their own, artificial intelligence that gives you answers to all your problems... So, you have to be well prepared. Because the fan can reason with their heart, but the leader has to do it with their head.

-Do you think Riquelme is ready for the position?

I'm 57, so I can't talk about Alberto J. Armando. Now, from the history I know, from Martín Benito Noel onward, to this day, Riquelme is the worst president Boca has ever had. They buy players who have never succeeded anywhere, which makes it very difficult for them to do well at Boca. They buy substitutes and sell poorly. It's happening now. They make bad commercial transactions. The success of a manager is getting rid of those who don't play well to keep the good and become a champion. Because if you sell the good and always keep the bad, you won't win the championship. Now, they're talking about dissolving the Football Council. That's telling people: "Hey, I made a mistake here." I don't disband something that's working... After all, Boca's pitch is the same as it was 30 years ago.

-If you're going to tell me that painting it and adding acrylic paint is the key to a change... You have to go see River Plate's stadium. That's a renovation. Boca Juniors has the same stadium it had thirty years ago, after Macri renovated it. And it has the same property left to them by the previous Board of Directors. River Plate tells you: "Hey, we're going to open a trust fund for people to put money in, we're going to give you 2% monthly, let's see how much money we can raise. We need $100,000,000,000 ." Three days later they tell you: "Close the trust fund, it's already overflowing with money." Riquelme has gone these past two years of his administration without a title, without qualifying for the Copa Libertadores. They have high-ranking employees who are there to carry letters and are paid a ton of money. Because I don't think the Board has made many decisions.

-And how do you solve the problem?

-I think Riquelme needs to come up with a new idea and pursue it. Hire suitable people for the position of sporting director. You have to do daily, ongoing work, gathering data. You can't bring in a player who plays well but drinks four demijohns of wine a day.

-Are you saying this because of the Chilean Palacios?

-No, I don't name names. I have three sons who play soccer, and at any moment they could be teammates. Whoever fits, let them. But you can't have six or seven players over thirty-five years old... In today's world, having a player who doesn't run is complicated; imagine two or three on the same team. At Boca Juniors, you have to have a broad vision. Either you buy young players to become figures in Argentine soccer and help you win a championship. Or you buy a megastar, Paredes. Now, if you bring in 26- or 27-year-old players who cost five or six million dollars and have never been figures anywhere in the world... And, you're going to do badly.

Miguel is someone who's prepared to pull this off. But if you give Lando Norris Franco Colapinto's car, he won't be able to race it either. So, he had to take on this whole mess. Either he swerves and changes gears, or things get complicated.

Do you think Russo has the freedom to work? Because recently, all the coaches have been under Riquelme's control.

-Now it's true, because there's nothing lower than where you are. After this, they'll throw you down. Then, Miguel has the opportunity. So if he's going to change anything, he has to do it this week. And I think he will. There aren't many people who are prepared to keep this ship afloat. When you ask for a coach for Boca, he has to have prestige or have won two or three championships in a row. You can't just pick anyone for the job. And you can't just throw your idols out at a gas station, like what happened with Battaglia.

-They've already started to question it.

-The other day they criticized him because he played with three number fives… Boca became champions that way with Bianchi. Serna, Basualdo, Battaglia... Traverso too. I also heard questions because he gave the players a day off after a defeat. Twenty or thirty years ago, if we played poorly, they'd make us train double shifts. Today, players around the world get two days off. Because when he comes back the day after a bad game, he's going to spit shit in the locker room and infect the next guy. Forty-eight hours later, he'll be much more relaxed. You don't improve in football with a whip.

-And how do you solve the football problem? The identity is blurred, and it's already going through its worst run of history.

-Football is a state of mind. And when the virus hits, you have to have a lot of personality to be able to detach yourself. They're in that situation today, but you can't blame Russo, who's been managing them for seven games. I think it's obviously a matter of individual functioning that then leads to collective decisions that are made at the wrong time. There's no foresight.

- Are walls the solution? How do you think they could best surround it?

It's difficult, because football isn't about a single player, especially if it's a central midfielder. It requires significant defensive composure, the ability to create plays in the midfield, a change of pace from the midfield forward, and finishing in the final yards. Boca doesn't have any of those qualities. Perhaps a little playmaking with Paredes, who demonstrated his proficiency in these first two matches with four masterful passes. Now, you're asking a footballer to solve problems from fifty meters out.

-What if he plays a little further forward?

-Well, he could be a free agent. I don't see him as a 10 yet, even though he started there, but it seems unfair to me to give Paredes all the responsibility. It's too much that he had the courage to come to Boca at this time. Because another player wouldn't have come now.

-Wouldn't you recommend anyone to come to this Boca?

-No, I'm not saying that because playing for Boca is the best thing that can happen to a footballer.

-And why did so many players want to leave or want to leave?

-When you're at a club, you're a star, you play well, and people love you, you don't want to leave. Unless you're a 20-year-old kid whose world of Europe opens up to you. If not, you don't leave.

-Why is Boca's locker room so heated?

-All locker rooms are heated. Do you think River's isn't heated? But they have a tough, firm leadership that doesn't give them a chance. Boca's locker room, when you give them an inch, turns into a powder keg.

-So, you're saying that, for example, what happened with Merentiel wouldn't have happened to Gallardo.

-No, I'm not going to say it like that because you're leading me into a trap. What I'm saying is that what happened at Boca probably wouldn't have happened at River Plate. Now, don't forget that at the time, Orteguita didn't want to leave, and I was still on the pitch. The point is, you have to make decisions, be consistent... and move forward. I repeat, Boca has had the same pitch for thirty years.

-And also, the same wardrobe issues. Or weren't you the hawks and the doves?

-Yes, well, but in the middle there was a generation that became champions of everything, that didn't have that problem.

-Are you forgetting Palermo and Guillermo on one side and Riquelme and Delgado on the other?

-No, but personal problems are one thing, and locker room problems are another. They had their arguments at the time, but when they got on the field, they beat everyone.

-Do you think a rift has opened up at Boca because politics got involved?

There's a rift, but people are speaking out because the team is playing poorly. Because even if there are political differences, if you win every game, nothing happens. Now, if there's no good institutional management and you lose frequently, you have a problem.

-Don't you feel like there are people who seem more like Riquelme fans than Boca fans?

-He did a lot for the club on the pitch. It's logical, and I think that should be respected. And you see, I'm talking about mismanagement, not spurious or strange things. I want that to be clear. I don't have a problem with Riquelme, or with Fulanito, or with Menganito. I'm talking about poor presidential management that drags everyone else down. After all, everyone belongs to the place they want and how they want. The important thing is to do things right, and success comes in many different ways. When you isolate yourself, you don't learn anything. And when you talk to all the guys who think like you, you don't either. I love talking to people who think differently than me. It's the only way to learn.

-Would you talk to Riquelme?

-Sure, but I don't think he'll call me.

-Be careful, Beto Márcico and Mono Navarro Montoya are rumored to be in the running for the Football Council, and they were the stars of the Hawks and the Doves.

-(Laughs) Well, I hope whoever I take on does well. I'm a Boca Juniors fan and member. And for me, the most important thing is that the club does well. You have to bring in qualified people, who make a career out of their role, not an opportunity. And I think this decision coming from now on is going to be very important. Because after that, you can't change it again.

-What experience did that famous locker room split leave you with?

-Division ruins you. In any kind and place. I'll show you this with the PRO (Progressive Party), which lost the presidency to (Javier) Milei because Patricia (Bullrich) and Horacio (Rodríguez Larreta) were divided. Otherwise, they'd be on the march. Divisions always ruin you. When a father tells his son "go to the right" and a mother "go to the left," it's very difficult for things to turn out well. I believe unity and respect are what generate success.

-Over the years, did you talk about that division between former colleagues again?

-No, I don't think there's even a need to talk about it. It's clear who made the mistake, how they made the mistake, and everyone will defend their position. I'm calm because I wasn't Hawk or Dove, although I do recognize that those of us who weren't on either side could have done more to prevent this from happening.

-You mentioned PRO. You were Secretary of Sports, a congressman, and even a gubernatorial candidate. And now?

-Now we have a president who needs a little more time. There are many things I agree with and many others I don't. The only thing I'm sure of is that many people are falling by the wayside, who aren't getting paid or can't live well. But if these important decisions weren't made, everything would have been much worse. There's a huge problem here, and that is that everyone who stands before the people tells you they'll change everything in four years. And this is a lie. A country changes in 20 years.

-And you want to become a political figure again?

-No, I consider myself the leader of the PRO in La Pampa. I'm the person closest to all the officials. I joined the party in 2013 and helped build it strongly. In 2015, it was the only Patagonian province where Mauricio won in the runoff. And then, because they recognize in me a person who keeps his word and keeps it. Staunchly. And if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But I have no intention of being a candidate. I'm at a point where I'm really enjoying my four children, their professional and family development. This year I'll become a grandfather three times over. And I'm looking forward to developing our club in La Pampa, which is growing a lot. My dream is that in five or six years we can play against Boca Juniors and River Plate in the First Division tournament.

-Can Deportivo Mac Allister make it to the Professional League?

We've been growing a lot institutionally because we did everything with a lot of work and little money. Now it's starting to pay off because we're able to sell players. With that money, we built the field, the locker room, and the gym. And that structure is what later gives you the opportunity to build a competitive team and reach the First Division. Now, we're in the local league. But we're already finishing two synthetic turf fields and we bought the property next door.

-And how many partners do you have?

There are very few of us, barely 100, the same number of us who started. We run the club with the same principles we grew up with: hard work, effort, sacrifice, austerity, responsibility, and always moving forward.

-And what do you think about the inclusion of sports corporations in football? Why do you think there's so much resistance?

-Because we need to find an intermediary figure who doesn't affect the political line of all those involved in this mess. Today, clubs have a lot of private capital. They're there. Now, we need to organize them. They could pay taxes, be more beneficial. But perhaps it's not the SAD model. We need to reach a consensus. I don't think either model is successful on its own. I believe the models are successful because of the people who carry them out. Then, I understand and agree with the idea that Argentina has competitive athletes in all walks of life, because it has neighborhood and town clubs. Like Deportivo Mac Allister or so many other clubs in the Argentine Republic. These clubs need to be supported, helped, accompanied, and empowered. Clubs get kids off the streets, from troubled families, and integrate them into society. They generate education. Every kid who gets into football is a kid whose drugs you take away, and who's crime you steal. He's a kid who's going to learn respect... Because he respects the referee, the coach... So, automatically when he walks down the street, he's going to respect the teacher and the police.

-How do you assess your tenure at the Sports Secretariat?

"I loved it. I worked like a horse. I went every day at 8 a.m. and left at 8 p.m., made 100 trips throughout the interior. It had been 10 years since the 24 provincial Sports Secretaries had met. I met 12 times in three years. We organized the registration of neighborhood and town clubs, we gave out 5,000 subsidies, and we did a lot of really great things, but we didn't manage the press, and they weren't publicized. You'll see that all the programs we created are still there, but they're severely underfunded."

-It's a decision of the current national government, that's clear. What would you do?

-Let it be clear that I don't want to be Secretary of Sports... If the government's paradigm changes, the way the ministry and national sports are managed must change. You can't continue with the same idea if the president's way of thinking has changed.

-Did the situation with Orlando Moccagatta, your undersecretary, taint you?

-No, because in the end, their judgment was very clear. It was clear that there was no increase in the price of the pools. It was clear that the bids were being issued by the provinces, not us. For me, the situation was very clear. The mistake was signing the authorization because I had been part of the company, but anyone who knows about pools knows that Myrtha's are the best pools in the world. What they were trying to do was stop building pools with bricks that burst. I've always thought that the State should be associated with quality, not the State with poverty. When they held bids, they bought 32,000 balls, and they were a balloon that burst in the air. I prefer 1,500 balls, but quality ones.

-You don't want to get involved in national politics, okay? Would you like to be a leader?

-Today I am at the stage of enjoying my children.

I think I learned a lot. I've managed large groups. When I arrived at the secretariat, I had 477 employees. There were no quibbles; we were down to 309 people. We did so well that many people still write to me today. I brought in people who knew more than I did, and when I realized I didn't, I gave opportunities to employees who had been there for more than 25 years, and they became national directors.

-Will Macri have a second term in office at the Nation or at Boca Juniors?

-I don't know. I don't think he's looking for a second half. To have one, you have to look for it. He's at a stage where he can enjoy his age, still a little young, and enter a later age that will allow him to do other things.

-You talked about your four children, how are they?

All four of them are fine, thank God. They're professionals at what they do. My three sons are soccer players, they play in the First Division, my daughter is a lawyer in a difficult environment, but she was able to achieve it. They have my values, my ways. Alexis had an extraordinary career. As he developed, we saw he could be an exceptional player and not just another player. That's very difficult. All three were lucky enough to be raised at Argentinos Juniors. Kevin came to Belgium, played every game, and won three championships. Francis, in his own way, managed to stay in the First Division; I'm happy. I enjoy all four of them; I'm behind them. Everything they've done is thanks to their effort; they've all earned it. I never went to see a training session, to talk to the coaches, and I never spoke to a professor at my daughter's university. All I did was accompany them and always give them a positive vibe. I always told them : "Protest like the Japanese, we have to produce more." If the coach took you out and you were third, go first. If the coach is wrong, you have to convince him.

-Would you like Alexis to play for Boca again? He didn't leave in the best way...

"I'd like my three children to end up playing together at Argentinos Juniors and then at Deportivo Mac Allister. Then, time will tell. They have to go wherever they want. We have a rule: I tell them what I think, and they do what they want. We've raised them well."

-A manager once told me that (Silvio) Marzolini said: "El Colorado can get me." Maybe there was someone better than me, but I put in a lot of effort... I was a team player. I had excellent aerial play. Technically, average. I was slow physically. I was very aggressive. I was an average player, but I played more than 300 games in the First Division, and those who play that many games, you have to respect them. You see how I live; I'm not ostentatious. I made mistakes, but they were all unintentional. If at some point I made a mistake, I tried to apologize, to help. I can't imagine if there are two people fighting, taking one side of the other.

-You managed two teams, Argentinos and Belgrano. Why did you leave the sport?

-Because I wasn't a good coach. I didn't like it because I wasn't prepared. It all happened so fast. It hit me at a difficult time in my personal life. I couldn't establish myself, I wasn't ready, I was still competing as a footballer. I was 32 and didn't understand that I'd left football. My whole life was very fast. I debuted in the First Division at 14, in Buenos Aires at 18, and I did the best I could. I'm absolutely clear that I didn't do everything right. I made a lot of mistakes, but you can't buy experience. I tell my children: "Look, I'm not telling you the crooked things."

-What is your analysis of Argentine football?

People confuse concepts. Tactics with strategy, poverty with humility, and even with competitive. We play an even football, but not a competitive one. When we go to the Club World Cup, we lose. When we go to the Libertadores, we lose too. In a World Cup, we win, but let's face it, all the kids left the country. We are great producers of footballers. Along with Brazil, we are the best in the world. The only difference is that Brazil is better off economically, which allows them to develop a better domestic football; they can pay more.

-So, you agree with Alexis, who said that South Americans can fight, but they will hardly be able to beat the Europeans.

-Anyone can win, but it's clear that the Europeans took the best players at 20 years old, they pay better contracts, and they have a more competitive domestic football. That's crystal clear and true. Now, the Europeans have never played at altitude, they don't play in 40-degree temperatures, they don't have well-watered pitches, they don't resolve situations of fighting over whether or not to get paid a contract. We're clever, we know how to resolve situations. The Argentine's ability to adapt is tremendous in any country. Bring Mbappé to play in Bolivia and you'll see how he does.